Homage Forum

djolemag wrote: ↑May 12th, 2020, 3:20 am
Why do you think it would be more plausible ?
Cortebert was one of the most inventing company of that time, so in that terms, Cortebert seems much more as "meister" to Unitas than vice verse.... Especially if we look at roots and tradition, since Cortebert is founded in 1790, right? Disclaimer: it is just mine personal opinion

Mistery about similarity of Cortebert 727 and UT 285, same as Cortebert 736 <=> UT 6431 is still unsolved, in terms who is father and who is son... Common sense says that Cortebert as old vendor of pocket watches had more resources to produce ebauche to Unitas. On the other hand, economic logic says that Cortebert cut expenses by making specific orders from Unitas.... We all know about Cortebert pocket watches with Unitas 6497/8 and 6431/6445 movements...

Keyless work is not so important in that comparison, it is usually different in much more similar models from same vendor and in same family of movements...

My point of view is that Cortebert somehow "payed a debt" after WW2 for being in tight cooperation with Italy, through Perseo brand etc. More to add, we are all aware of similarity of Molnia and Cortebert movements, which 'strangely' occurs after WW2... so it could be a part of "war damage". Maybe Soviet Union just took machines or copycat movement (Cort 620) or it is done through some other sort of "cooperation", who knows...
There are rumors that Cortebert records vanished in fire during 1950, symptomatic?
Finally, Omega bought Cortebert in 1962, that is a weird fact I found recently somewhere on web...

Well, what you are painting is some romantical picture based on nothing but emotions

On the other hand I am talking simply about the known facts. And there are no facts which would support the idea that 6497 is a development of Cortebert. Because, as I already said - there is clear lineage from the 85 to 6487.

You did offhand dismiss the keyless works, but actually keyless is the main thing by which the movements are differentiated in Flume and all other sources. Not by the looks (bridge form) or anything else. Why? Well, because bridge form might be easily changed to get a different look, but keyless stays the same, because it's hidden under the dial. And when you inspect keyless works on 85, 285, 6497 it becomes very obvious, that it's the development of the same system:
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db. ... &Unitas_85
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db. ... Unitas_285
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db. ... ETA_6497_1
Cortebert 727 has the same keyless as 285. And 61X/62X does not fit here anywhere.

You are saying that "Mistery about similarity of Cortebert 727 and UT 285, same as Cortebert 736 <=> UT 6431 is still unsolved, in terms who is father and who is son...", but that's simply not true, if we use logic and common sense as you suggested.
We know that so called Cortebert 727 is UT285 by other name. If we were to use common sense, then it's logical to conclude, that it's just a variation of UT285 with different bridgeform (and I know of 3 different 285 bridgeforms besides this one). Because other option is to try to invent some weird ahistorical way in which 285 is a development of the 727, which then shoul be development of 6XX. And that would be totally illogical, not only because of the obvious geneology between 85 and 285 (not only keyless on these movements is very similar, but they can be found with exactly the same bridgeforms). But if that were the case, then 85 has to be development of 727 too, and that doesn't fit with the known chronology at all, because then 85 would be a develpoment of the movement which was made some 20 years later.

And the fact that Cortebert pocket watches did use 6497 and 6431 movements shows, that Cortebert did use UT movements. Not the other way around! We have no known Unitas (or even Arsa) watches with Cortebert movements...

Molnija story is an interesting one, but it's neither here nor there in this discussion.

I must admit you turned my opinion in 70:30 ratio in the means that you are right.
Still need to explore more facts before it grows to 100%
Yes, I'm romantic when speaking about cortebert

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Learned something today!

Not much info on web... Except few articles citing mostly perezcope, nothing special to find.
He shows how similar are cort 727 and ut 285, especially on dial side...
Still unclear who was first. Also, in that time both companies were part of Ebauches SA, so it will stay secret to us.
My clues were based on Cortebert reputation, they supplied Rolex, Hamilton, IWC ( jumphour), made so many railway watches for various brands worldwide, finally been bought by Omega in 1960's...
Unitas is slightly younger, but they always had robust movements (like wehrmachtwerks)..
Really can't be sure who was first.
Most well known cortebert calibers ar documented on web, at various catalogs etc, but there is no trace of cal 727. That leads to assumption about 727 as internal marking of ut 285 baseplate...
However, 727 and 285 are pretty similar for sure.
Strange history and occasions are bind to swiss horology... Some brands born from older brothers are alive today, while their root companies dropped down mostly during quartz crisis... Take Helvetia and Omega as clear example


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mountaineer wrote:

jbglock wrote: ↑May 10th, 2020, 6:29 am My example...

This example went for practically nothing at auction. As a pocket watch no one wanted it. I see 6497/6498 pocket watches going so cheap it amazes me. As a wristwatch it has a new life. I see this as people saving these watches.

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Is that a custom dial? How did you line it up for a wristwatch? Did you cut dial feet and rotate.

It is the one that came with the pocket watch. I got lucky as it was very clean. It was already in the orientation I needed for a wristwatch...

I just had to fit a stem and crown to it. Lots of wristwatch cases for doing this on Ebay with what appears to be a very common size around 38.9mm dial. Very inexpensive even with a sapphire crystal. I already have a second case and am hoping the pocket watch I have incoming is that same common sized dial.


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That bulova will makenjoy a nice wristwatch

Very interesting information! thank you very much!
Once I heard that Molnia is a copy of Cortebert , I bought it and was disappointed )))) no parts compatible. will try finally search for this story )))

wwwEvgeny wrote: ↑May 12th, 2020, 10:21 pm Very interesting information! thank you very much!
Once I heard that Molnia is a copy of Cortebert , I bought it and was disappointed )))) no parts compatible. will try finally search for this story )))

It is not exact copy but more like starting point. Russians made new caliber which is basically the same as cort 620 but parts not easily interchangeable..
There is a book on web about it, written by former employee of Chelyabinsk factory...
However, especially old Molnias (aka 3601) are good novements, usually underrated...

djolemag wrote: ↑May 13th, 2020, 1:22 am There is a book on web about it, written by former employee of Chelyabinsk factory...

Link?

spade_lt wrote: ↑May 13th, 2020, 2:53 am

djolemag wrote: ↑May 13th, 2020, 1:22 am There is a book on web about it, written by former employee of Chelyabinsk factory...

Link?

I found Russian articles, can send to you links, google translate can translate at least some how. But how trustable this articles I do not know.